Curse

Terek Zelta · Oct 03, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way you got to link me the thread so I can search it.

You totally misunderstood what I said.

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PS: Earth Warders are terrible; in coordinated teams you screw all these niceties and plain take the (mega) damage to the enemy and roll them over with it.

Hate to say it, and I'm again not trying to be a jerk, but this explains a lot.

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Try it, post screenshots and if you can reach 50% of what a buffed physical can do I'll be impressed. Since you seem convinced that an Elementalist can approach Warrior damage vs. the MoD (which is heavily biased towards Elementalist damage), try it and convince me. Either go 1) consistent DPS, which means over at least a minute, or 2) spike DPS, which means over like 5 seconds.

You seem convinced an Elementalist can approach Warrior damage vs. the Master of Damage when I'm totally convinced the Warrior is still light-years ahead. I argue that Warrior damage is way superior to Elementalist damage not because of HM armor, but because of the nature Warrior damage is.

I decided to humor you. And yes, actually, elementalist damage is in fact inferior (mostly) to warrior damage in HM because of the armor. +damage ignores armor. Elementalist damage does not, but I'm sure I don't need to tell you this.

When I first jumped into this thread, I took you seriously, but your entire argument is based on theory. Where are your Judge's Insight + Orders screenshots? Which, by the way, cancel each other out. It just shows you have no idea what you're talking about and no experience with these things.

I got tons of screens here. Prepare to be impressed~

This is basic Dragon Slash. You can see my bar as clear as day. 12 + 1 strength, 12 + 1 + 1 swordsmanship.

So you can see I'm not pulling your leg. It's pretty consistent for the duration of FGJ.

Now, onto the elementalist!

Pretty standard Savannah Heat in PVE. I echoed Savannah Heat. I'm not sure why. I don't think there were any rules against echo, right?

More Savannah Heat. Again, consistent. Not only am I achieving the same raw firepower as my warrior on a single target, but I'm hitting two other targets, vastly exceeding my warrior's DPS. This is without buffs and PVE skills obviously.

Sexy Mind Blast! Overall, not as high, but can be sustained indefinitely and can hit multiple targets. GoLE is overkill, which I didn't realize when I threw the build together. Use echo or something for epicocity. /makes up words

This is Dragon Slash spam with Asuran Scan at Asuran rank 5. My rank is not especially high, but +16% damage shouldn't net me more than a maximum of 110-120 DPS over the course of FGJ. We can't really compare this to elementalists not using PVE skills (as elementalists can afford to bring things such as EBSoH and By Ural's Hammer, etc.) this is just to help put things into perspective.

And if you want to QQ about team builds... Triple ele.

/thread

Edit: Had to put that black box thing over my guild's opening message.

But yeah. Just one thing: This is over the course of the skills' duration. Triple heat has a long recharge, which is why my warrior seems to get almost twice the damage at the end. He's really not.

On a warrior, with a team build, I can easily hit 270-280 DPS with Asuran Scan [on the MoD.] The problem with this is that you shift the balance of power to the warrior so much, that the team becomes unbalanced in effect. You end up with three classes devoted to buffing (in theory, barring energy problems, which will definitely come into play from maintaining enchantments; not to mention... they're enchantments) the 2-3 warriors and then two healers. It's inefficient, and you can actually get much more damage out of a properly balanced team. If it was overpowered, it'd be abused. It's not, really, at least as far as I can see.

Jeydra · Oct 03, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

You're really brave to post screenshots with one quarter the DPS of FengShuiDove's A/D (who hit 250 DPS).

You shall have your screenshots in a moment.

EDIT:

First things first: I say either spike DPS (over maybe 5 seconds) or consistent DPS (over a minute). Your double Savannah Heat Elementalist is obviously not going to be able to maintain the DPS. It doesn't matter that much though ...

None of my Warrior-playing friends are online / free at the moment, so I went out there and got a screenshot myself.

136 DPS over 59 seconds (that's more than FGJ! cooldown) on Elementalist primary - with Warriors obviously going to deal more damage (his Dragon Slash hits +5 adrenaline), this is going to be twice the sustained DPS of your Elementalist builds.

PS: I used Frenzy to simulate Flail, or Drunken Master, or consumables. It lacks a cancel stance, which doesn't matter that much since a real Warrior can easily fit in Enraging / Flail.

Are you impressed?

PPS: You do not need three characters to buff three Warriors. You need less than that - for example, an ER Ele can maintain Strength of Honor + give Judge's Insight / GDW, quite simply, which leaves two characters to throw Barbs / Mark of Pain / hex + condi removal around.

PPPS: Used my skills a bit better (only hitting By Ural's Hammer! when FGJ was active and DSlash charged, for example) I hit 145 DPS. Want to see the screenshot?

Perfected Shadow · Oct 03, 2009, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

If it was overpowered, it'd be abused. It's not, really, at least as far as I can see.

Exactly. Actually outside of guild teams (even that's rare, and I've guild hopped many times), I've never seen any GLF physical at all. So imo it should stay the way it is, no buffs, no nerfs; if people put in the effort to build for and support physical damage dealers then they should reap the rewards.

Terek Zelta · Oct 03, 2009, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Exactly. Actually outside of guild teams (even that's rare, and I've guild hopped many times), I've never seen any GLF physical at all. So imo it should stay the way it is, no buffs, no nerfs; if people put in the effort to build for and support physical damage dealers then they should reap the rewards.

Right, and even then, it'd only work in certain areas. Because again, in practice, buffing physicals to that extent is usually impractical. Yeah, I can hit 250+ DPS, but I'm the only one in my setup (me + 3 heroes) who's doing real damage. This worked for bosses like Cyndr The Mountain Heart, but I quickly realized I created an extremely unbalanced team setup, and ended up paying for it later on.

Physical heavy teams don't make use of all of those buffs anyway. They only make use of a handful of buffs (Splinter Weapon, Dark Fury, Strength of Honor on one or two players or Bonds, possibly orders or curses, and EBSoH which benefits everyone at most) and that's pretty much it, because it's more balanced. Those together create high damage, but it's not really massive lolwat damage. You get massive lolwat damage from warriors by stacking the adrenaline boosts more so than buffing their attack power. And if you do that, well, you're creating an unbalanced team, and even though some enemies will fall laughably easily, many enemies will destroy and spit on you.

The way I can hit 250+ DPS on my warrior is by using different combinations of Dark Fury, Infuriating Heat, Mark of Fury, Strength of Honor, Asuran Scan, etc. which created a ton of problems for everyone else in the group except for me. And if I got snared or otherwise taken out of the fight, it was gg Terek.

FoxBat · Oct 03, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

The master of damage is a 60 AL monk, of course SH is going to hurt him.

Life Bringing · Oct 03, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Probably could've gotten higher but w/e. Btw, cut your DPS in half for a melee because you have to run around after killing shit in 2 secs.

Reverend Dr · Oct 03, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Honest question: What is the point of this thread now?

Life Bringing · Oct 03, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Honest question: What is the point of this thread now?

Pointless debate over a random topic completely separate from the original thread topic. In other words, it's just like every other thread on guru

Tenebrae · Oct 03, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Since physicalway is so much slower than tank and spank obviously physicals are underpowered at dealing damage. True?

God no , why do you have to distort reality ? no one is saying that and that conclussion is totally nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

I've already given screenshots. You just either haven't been reading posts or do not acknowledge them. Yes I'm waiting for non-SC case because i refuse to see the truth no matter how many ppl tell me im wrong even when i ask for non sense screenshots of something that has nothing to do with the topic.

Fixed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You are coming very close to being an outright troll by the way; if you prefer to end up on ignore like some other people already are, be my guest.

Oh right , now you call me troll . Ironic ... and really and really mature.

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Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Your conditions are downright stupid jeydra. I invite you to show a screen with only physicals. No casters. Monks are casters.

Tbh, warriors could probably use a buff. Sins and dervs can easily pump out more damage than a warrior. Ofc, it's probably more that scythes and dagger shit is op, but might as well bring warriors to equal standings. It IS pve after all.

As for SCs, there's a reason that casters are used. They have a large number of high damage, armor ignoring AoE spike skills. Physicals lack these skills.

No matter how many times or how many ppl say this , he wont back off . Check screens , is there any person that didnt notice its energy for being an ele ? and conjure frost ? cough cough *adding20dpsthatwarriorwillneverhave*cough and even BUH! wich no warrior uses because SY is far better for the group ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Honest question: What is the point of this thread now?

At this point ? none , all things have been proven but some ppl still have to bump the thread for more offtopic against pve skill , physicalway or whatever. Its been funny .... but not anymore , im off .

Warriors are not overpowered , some of PvE skills are , thats it.
/thread.

Jeydra · Oct 03, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Rofl.

Why do I have so little Energy as an Elementalist primary? - because any sane Elementalist using a Sword would pour all his points into the elemental attribute Conjure X.
Why did I bring By Ural's Hammer and forego SY? - because I didn't. SY is on my bar. I would be cheating if I ran I Am The Strongest! instead of SY, but I did put SY on my bar. Not to mention By Ural's Hammer is on Terek Zelta's bar as well.
Conjure Frost adding 20 DPS that Warriors will never have - man, you must go into the record books as the only Warrior who says / implies that Elementalists can outdamage Warrior primaries while using a Sword because of Conjure Frost.

I'm done, you're a troll, congrats on making it to ignore.

Btw Life Bringing I leave it to you to tell Tenebrae how much faster tank and spank is compared to physicalway in SCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Probably could've gotten higher but w/e. Btw, cut your DPS in half for a melee because you have to run around after killing shit in 2 secs.

Cut your DPS in half as well too, because Spirits can get killed, Spirits take time to set up and half your DPS comes from Painful Bond which goes away when the target dies (and it's 15e to cast / 12s to recharge too - Asuran Scan, the Warrior equivalent, is easily reapplied). And a variety of other drawbacks, but then Warriors have their drawbacks too so yeah.

Also the cruncher for the purposes of this thread: you can only have 3 spirit-spamming Ritualists max in a team. Where are you going to get the rest of your DPS from?

Make no mistake: Rit damage is excellent after the buff, and I've long since switched my H/H builds to include two Rit heroes. But in a team that can run it, Rits can't match buffing physicals.

@Reverend_Dr - there is a point and it is related to the original post, but it's somewhat convulated and long-winded. If mods prefer to close this thread on the grounds that it's gone off-topic, by all means.

Improvavel · Oct 03, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Jeydra you realize that warriors have half that starting energy and half the energy regen, don't you?

After 10 secs you will be out of energy from casting frenzy, asuran scan and BuH. And god forbid if you have to recast the conjure mid battle.

And if you bring frenzy in pve you need a cover stance. If you bring flail without another stance you will be slow as a crawl chasing enemies. If you bring drunken master you need to drop one of the PvE only skills, be it AS, BuH or SY!.

All this time you spent in this thread and testing, you could have done a warrior by now and see how a warrior actually works instead of hitting a 60 armor dude that doesn't move.

draxynnic · Oct 04, 2009, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Part of the reason I don't use Scan all that often myself - the energy cost, and even if you're running WE, what's the point when the target is going to be dead two seconds later?

Improvavel · Oct 04, 2009, 10:04 AM // 10:04

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Part of the reason I don't use Scan all that often myself - the energy cost, and even if you're running WE, what's the point when the target is going to be dead two seconds later?

People keep talking about DPS, how great DPS is and then they keep talking how mobs die in seconds.

Yes, sustained DPS is great but if the battle only last a few seconds and then it is time to walk to the next mob, a character that does massive damage and then dries out isn't in that much of a bad situation compared to a sustained DPS character, as long as next battle starts that character is ready again.

I don't understand this predilection to crunch numbers when we have a simulator, called Guild Wars, when we can actually test how the numbers work in game combining all the factors instead of separating each individual one.

draxynnic · Oct 06, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

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Originally Posted by Improvavel

People keep talking about DPS, how great DPS is and then they keep talking how mobs die in seconds.

To play devil's advocate... because one opponent only lasts for seconds doesn't mean a character that works through high spike damage couldn't have run out by the time you get through that enemy's seven buddies. Of course, if you're hitting all eight at once, that's something else entirely (this is why the old CoP was powerful).

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I don't understand this predilection to crunch numbers when we have a simulator, called Guild Wars, when we can actually test how the numbers work in game combining all the factors instead of separating each individual one.

Possibly because then it's hard to see just how much effect any individual element has. Of course, a similar comment could be made about crunched numbers - sure, they might look good, but how relevant are they to real situations?

Improvavel · Oct 06, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

To play devil's advocate... because one opponent only lasts for seconds doesn't mean a character that works through high spike damage couldn't have run out by the time you get through that enemy's seven buddies. Of course, if you're hitting all eight at once, that's something else entirely (this is why the old CoP was powerful).

Possibly because then it's hard to see just how much effect any individual element has. Of course, a similar comment could be made about crunched numbers - sure, they might look good, but how relevant are they to real situations?

There are some situations when crunching numbers can easily disprove something, like energy management, but in a situation like this, hitting static enemies is quite different.

When nightfall came out and I looked at the adrenal costs of spears attacks I remember thinking "Wow I will never be able use those attacks without some serious adrenaline boosters!". That was me thinking based on the experience I had with a warrior. The truth is of course being a ranged weapon, the spear don't wast time when you change targets and that means 6/7 adrenaline attacks for spears are equivalent to 4/5 adrenaline melee weapons attacks.

Numbers some times have no real use as they don't incorporate all the relevant variables.

Jeydra · Oct 07, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Numbers some times have no real use as they don't incorporate all the relevant variables.

No, but I wound up posting these screenshots (and so too did Terek Zelta) because he argued that Elementalist damage vs. the MoD is comparable to Warrior damage, while I was convinced that Warrior damage is still way superior (see post #109 / #110). So we went out there and tested it, and true to form self-buffed Warriors hit for twice the DPS of an Elementalist against the Master of Damage, which we both agreed beforehand heavily biases in favour of the Elementalist.

An aside here - I did repeat the test using a Warrior primary and, as expected, Warrior DPS > Elementalist DPS, but I don't quite see the point of posting the screenshot.

Of course it's only mine (and my friend's) Warrior bars hit for twice the DPS while Terek Zelta's bars do not. Why not? I think it comes down to his love for Brawling Headbutt. See, when he fits in Asuran Scan he drops By Ural's Hammer but keeps Brawling Headbutt. Now Brawling Headbutt is a good skill ... but as I wrote the same about Earth Warders, I just don't see why it matters, and goes right back to the old argument for why reactive hexing sucks. I quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The fastest way to kill an enemy is simply to hammer it into the ground. Daze it, slam it, throw a dozen spears at it. Spiteful Spirit, Backfire, Empathy, Visions of Regret... they all are less than optimal skills for this job - not to mention they all cast slow or very slow. A foe won't attack when he's on his back, nor will he attack enough for it to matter until he's dead.

In the same way why bother with Brawling Headbutt when you can plain overwhelm the target with big damage? Why have an Earth Warder when Save Yourselves! protects against so many kinds of damage? Why bother with anything else when buffing physicals - and it's not that hard to buff three physicals at the same time, not just one - gives you more damage than anything else? You only need to survive. You do not need Blind and Diversion and other niceties. It's not hard to buff frontliners too. You don't need to go overboard with the buffing. The two obvious buffs are Strength of Honour and Great Dwarf Weapon, which add ~45 damage (with 40% chance to KD to boot) to every attack. Other buffs: take your pick of Orders, or Judge's Insight, or the Vanguard Ward, or Barbs / Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon and so on backed by Signet of Removal / Purifying Veil etc. They can't all be applied but a lot of them can be, at the same time. Of course you don't bring Infuriating Heat - not worth the rewards for the investment.

For certain playing a balanced team with Earth Warders and unbuffed Warriors etc is more fun for everyone than playing a team with everyone buffing the frontline. Too bad the second option is just faster than the first.

But I digress ...

If someone wants to argue that it's not Warriors who are overpowered but the buffs to Warriors that are, sure. As long as we agree the end result is overpowered.

draxynnic · Oct 07, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No, but I wound up posting these screenshots (and so too did Terek Zelta) because he argued that Elementalist damage vs. the MoD is comparable to Warrior damage, while I was convinced that Warrior damage is still way superior (see post #109 / #110). So we went out there and tested it, and true to form self-buffed Warriors hit for twice the DPS of an Elementalist against the Master of Damage, which we both agreed beforehand heavily biases in favour of the Elementalist.

I'd argue that 'heavily' - there's bias because the Master of Damage is three targets (but a PvE mob could easily be more than that) and because the MoD (probably) has PvP armour rather than HM PvE enemy armour. The lack of movement, however, biases for Warriors and Elementalists equally if the Elementalist is using AoEDoT effects, and probably shifts some of the bias back towards the Warrior's court if the Elementalist isn't using scatter-inducing effects. (Plus, elementalist damage is known to be weak in HM.)

Improvavel · Oct 07, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No, but I wound up posting these screenshots (and so too did Terek Zelta) because he argued that Elementalist damage vs. the MoD is comparable to Warrior damage, while I was convinced that Warrior damage is still way superior (see post #109 / #110). So we went out there and tested it, and true to form self-buffed Warriors hit for twice the DPS of an Elementalist against the Master of Damage, which we both agreed beforehand heavily biases in favour of the Elementalist.

An aside here - I did repeat the test using a Warrior primary and, as expected, Warrior DPS > Elementalist DPS, but I don't quite see the point of posting the screenshot.

Of course it's only mine (and my friend's) Warrior bars hit for twice the DPS while Terek Zelta's bars do not. Why not? I think it comes down to his love for Brawling Headbutt. See, when he fits in Asuran Scan he drops By Ural's Hammer but keeps Brawling Headbutt.

Yeah, but those screen shots are all for a short span and don't take in account the fact that master doesn't kite and that asuran scan will contribute a lot less if someone else goes after the same target you do.

Looking at both screen shots posted if you just look at the averages just before the total is given they are pretty similar and quite far away from 200 damage per second, being close to 100 and in HM against HM foes the base damage of the sword its pretty much insignificant.

Quote:

If someone wants to argue that it's not Warriors who are overpowered but the buffs to Warriors that are, sure. As long as we agree the end result is overpowered.

The main difference between this is PvE-only skills. We already those skills are overpowered - EVAS, YMLAD and FH are, for example quite, overpowered as well and a caster with a skill like AP will also do serious damage.

And I think it isn't so much the physicals that are overpowered, but the elementalists that are underpowered especially because they can't really do efficient damage based on their weapon.

Titan quest was a game that I find particularly refreshing in the way casters deal their damage - a huge portion of it is done by enchanting their staffs and not only by spells.

Terek Zelta · Oct 07, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Of course it's only mine (and my friend's) Warrior bars hit for twice the DPS while Terek Zelta's bars do not. Why not? I think it comes down to his love for Brawling Headbutt. See, when he fits in Asuran Scan he drops By Ural's Hammer but keeps Brawling Headbutt. Now Brawling Headbutt is a good skill ... but as I wrote the same about Earth Warders, I just don't see why it matters, and goes right back to the old argument for why reactive hexing sucks.

No, it's because you're doing it wrong. By Ural's Hammer? On a warrior? Seriously?

The builds I used were functional metas. If I saw a warrior bringing By Ural's Hammer on a Dragon Slash bar - or any standard warrior bar - I'd face-plant my desk, and at the very least ask him to bring a better skill. There are better options even for damage on a warrior. You have to have the experience and have to do the math to understand that.

Anyone can load By Ural's Hammer, EBSoH, Asuran Scan onto a bar, spec 10 into Smiting Prayers, maintain SoH on themselves, hit FGJ and be doing insane damage for 10 seconds, but if you do this, then you have no idea how to play a warrior. As a warrior, you don't need any of that to kill stuff. Takes me 3-4 hits to kill something without them in HM, unless I'm in a particularly hard area. So, because of this (things being killed so easily in PVE), we should bring different skills, like utility.

It's not functional. It's not functional because of long recharge times, heavy energy usage, unnecessarily high damage output which forces you to sacrifice any utility, etc. This makes your build unbalanced, which means its only use is in specific gimmicks for a particular area, and that's useless.

And that's what it comes down to. You don't know how to play a warrior. You don't have the experience playing warriors in the actual game, and your tests are flawed because of it. But in the end, so are mine, just because I'm testing on the Master of Damage in the first place.

So let me explain this even more by giving a scenario: Let's say you bring the above, barring SoH and EBSoH. Let's say SoH is on another player or hero at 10 smiting prayers, and EBSoH is on someone else. Now, let's assume your bar is this:

Dragon Slash
Asuran Scan
"By Ural's Hammer!"
"Save Yourselves!"
Flail
Enraging Charge
Enduring Harmony
"For Great Justice!"

We'll assume you have +5 energy to use all that on your weapon, which in the end, actually lowers your damage by a lot. And another warrior's bar is this:

Dragon Slash
Brawling Headbutt
Steelfang Slash
"Save Yourselves!"
Flail
Enraging Charge
Enduring Harmony
"For Great Justice!"

Okay, so because EBSoH is on another player, you can bring SY. That's good.

Now, let's assume we're in an area, we're fighting a group of enemies, and you and I are on two different monks. That's the setting. The fight begins...

You pop By Ural's Hammer and Asuran Scan when you're Dragon Slashing one of the monks down. Let's say you down this monk in 3 hits because of your buffs, while ordinarily, it might take the second warrior 5 or 6. But wait, after your first Dragon Slash, the monk casts Guardian on itself and heals up your damage. You have no utility to counter any of this. So now it takes you even longer to kill this monk. Actually, you now can't kill the monk at all, but have to wait for your team to do it because to Dragon Slash against a blocking enemy is stupid. As for the second warrior? Well he knocked the monk down when he first engaged him, shutting it down and having a much easier time with killing it. The second warrior can keep this up for as long as it takes. And your By Ural's Hammer? Wasted. And now you're under Flail, so you limp to your next enemy, having been defeated by a single monk, and thus contributing nothing to your group.

Oh, but now FGJ is down and you have no way to keep your adrenaline up to keep your party covered by SY. The second warrior does with Brawling -> Steelfang. But now FGJ is recharged, and all is well. The second warrior can get right back into the fight. Oh wait, but you can't. Why? Because you spent all your energy spamming Asuran Scan.

At the end of the day, the group decides not to invite you again, but will gladly take the second warrior, because he was prepared and you were not. He knew what he was doing, and you did not.

See how this works?

So no. Warrior damage is not overpowered. Warrior damage is nicely balanced. Elementalists just aren't damage dealers in HM.

Estief Yu · Oct 07, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrayal

He stated at the beginning, in PVE. What do they call warrior in game again? Oh yeah TANK. If you wanna blow shiet up, go make an elementalist, that's why they're called nukers. Defy Pain is under strength attribute so why is it a waste of attribute points? You would suggest no points in strength then? And don't be saying warrior is meant to do damage just because it can farm raptors fastest. We're talking about the game in general

Since there is no skill forcing enemies to attack you, good luck holding agro in a full group of eight. And he has a valid point, why would you waste a skill slot on Defy Pain when other, better, Strength skills are available?